Thread: Regrind bowl gouge

What you are doing is grinding the whole thing as one.
The best way is to fix the wings first to get rid of the hollow at the front, do not touch the front of the tool.
Once you have both wings correct it will look more like a dart so now you blend the front to soften the curve, do not over do it.
The elsworth grind is primarily a shearing cut where you use the wings only.

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

What you are doing is grinding the whole thing as one.
The best way is to fix the wings first to get rid of the hollow at the front, do not touch the front of the tool.
Once you have both wings correct it will look more like a dart so now you blend the front to soften the curve, do not over do it.
The elsworth grind is primarily a shearing cut where you use the wings only.

Ah i see, i thought i was just following the tormek instructions and they follow in one swoop. I likely have this wrong.

I will try again just focusing on the sides though to sweep it back more.

Thanks for the response.

Okay so you were on the money, I’ve re ground it focussing on the side skipping the front and have removed the wings, much nicer cuts now

Appreciate the help

Cheers
Nathan

Nathan

The way you had it before you reground it would have been suitable as an inside bottom of bowl gouge and also for facing off blanks. I have a few like that with a 65° nose bevel that I use for that purpose.

The wings the way they were are also good for quickly hogging off lots of wood from green blanks with an Ellsworth cut.

But, as you found, it is not so good for push cuts.

Yeah very good point, do you or other turners have multiple chisels in the same size just with different honed profiles for this purpose? Or just form habits with the type of cuts supported by that profile and stick to that? Ie I’ve heard other turners on YouTube say they use push more than Pull cuts

Originally Posted by delbs

Yeah very good point, do you or other turners have multiple chisels in the same size just with different honed profiles for this purpose? Or just form habits with the type of cuts supported by that profile and stick to that? Ie I’ve heard other turners on YouTube say they use push more than Pull cuts

Yes & Yes!

For a beginner it is best to stick to the KISS principle and use grinds, angles, flute shapes etc that "do most things well."

As you gain experience you start to realize that the "does most things well" has limits and that there are better options for particular applications as NeilS mentions.

So if/when you progress to that stage rather than put a lot of tool steel through the grinder changing "grinds" it simply makes sense to use two or more gouges / chisels. Saves time as well.

I have a set of Woodcut replaceable tip bowl and spindle gouges that are shaft and tip only to use in the older style ER16 collet style (?) Woodcut handle system. They are ground to the shapes / profiles I use occasionally and also make a great set for taking to collab style events. I also have at least 3 of each skew chisel in 1/2", 3/4" and 1" sizes ground to different skew & tip angles.

However as I see the prices of tool steel these days I'm glad I've amassed these over a couple of decades.

Originally the 2 of each tool happened because both my son and I started turning (25 + years ago) so we purchased two of each of the commonly used tools, then we realized the benefit of having them ground to different profiles for the above reasons. It sort of grew from there.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Yes & Yes!

For a beginner it is best to stick to the KISS principle and use grinds, angles, flute shapes etc that "do most things well."

As you gain experience you start to realize that the "does most things well" has limits and that there are better options for particular applications as NeilS mentions.

So if/when you progress to that stage rather than put a lot of tool steel through the grinder changing "grinds" it simply makes sense to use two or more gouges / chisels. Saves time as well.

I have a set of Woodcut replaceable tip bowl and spindle gouges that are shaft and tip only to use in the older style ER16 collet style (?) Woodcut handle system. They are ground to the shapes / profiles I use occasionally and also make a great set for taking to collab style events. I also have at least 3 of each skew chisel in 1/2", 3/4" and 1" sizes ground to different skew & tip angles.

However as I see the prices of tool steel these days I'm glad I've amassed these over a couple of decades.

Originally the 2 of each tool happened because both my son and I started turning (25 + years ago) so we purchased two of each of the commonly used tools, then we realized the benefit of having them ground to different profiles for the above reasons. It sort of grew from there.

haha yes well i agree, my chisel collection is intentional, i've picked up a couple nice chisels recently to make sure they're fit for purpose and I'm not just collecting random collections 2nd hand. i want to find my go-to and get comfortable with a specific grind to spend some time with. Id say ill expand to have a couple different sizes of each style of bg and skews etc

Another thing im noticing aside from getting used to the chisels is encountering grain orientation from blanks, blanks Ive either received from arborist or friends that im throwing on for the first time, i discover the end grain or the pith are still there so its a blank made from a smaller limb of the tree and the chisel can behave differently.

So now im coming to grips with the chisel behavior and style of cuts i need to keep my blanks a little more intentionally prepped and suitable for bowl turning to keep me going and minimize the curve balls thrown my way whilst learning.

Appreciate the feedback all
Nathan

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Nowadays I use three basic grinds: 65°, 55° and 40° (well, actually 42.5° : ~). The flute profiles partly determine which of those grinds I use on a gouge. I have multiples of each grind profile in every size gouge that I use, although that has only happened progressively over many years. I don't ern my living from turning, but my turning more than pays for itself, so I have the luxury of being able to buy whatever I think I need. But, like everyone, I struggled to buy my first few tools in the early years.

Some bevel angles used by other turners...

I visited a mate recently who is a very experienced turner and he told me he uses 45° on all of his bowl gouges.

I think Richard Raffan uses just one primary bevel grind angle on his bowl gouges (whatever that is), but varies the sweep back on the wings (sometimes from one wing to the other on the same gouge) and also uses scrapers a lot to turn the bottom inside of bowls instead of using a dedicated gouge for that. His wings sweep back less than most other turners. He signature bowl gouges are made by Henry Taylor and have the 'elliptical' Superflute profile that is close to parabolic.

Glenn Lucas mostly uses a 55° bevel angle but also 60° for inside bowl bottom and 45° at times to clean up endgrain. He prefers a parabolic flute.

Stuart Batty uses his 40/40 grind for endgrain cuts, but also a 60° for the inside bottom of bowls. His 40/40 grind is not so easy to to achieve on a V flute profile.

David Ellsworth uses 60-65°. His wings sweep back more than other turners and his grind works better on parabolic flutes (eg Woodcut). For a time I used only that and his Ellsworth method of turning. It was a good discipline that I go back to at times and it is still how I do the final finishing shear cuts on the outside of bowls.

Each turner finds what works for them. The quality of the steel isn't so important when experimenting with different grinds. A cheaper gouge can be used for that as long as the flute profile is suited to the grind, or is that the other way around.

Originally Posted by NeilS

.
Nowadays I use three basic grinds: 65°, 55° and 40° (well, actually 42.5° : ~). The flute profiles partly determine which of those grinds I use on a gouge. I have multiples of each grind profile in every size gouge that I use, although that has only happened progressively over many years. I don't ern my living from turning, but my turning more than pays for itself, so I have the luxury of being able to buy whatever I think I need. But, like everyone, I struggled to buy my first few tools in the early years.

Some bevel angles used by other turners...

I visited a mate recently who is a very experienced turner and he told me he uses 45° on all of his bowl gouges.

I think Richard Raffan uses just one primary bevel grind angle on his bowl gouges (whatever that is), but varies the sweep back on the wings (sometimes from one wing to the other on the same gouge) and also uses scrapers a lot to turn the bottom inside of bowls instead of using a dedicated gouge for that. His wings sweep back less than most other turners. He signature bowl gouges are made by Henry Taylor and have the 'elliptical' Superflute profile that is close to parabolic.

Glenn Lucas mostly uses a 55° bevel angle but also 60° for inside bowl bottom and 45° at times to clean up endgrain. He prefers a parabolic flute.

Stuart Batty uses his 40/40 grind for endgrain cuts, but also a 60° for the inside bottom of bowls. His 40/40 grind is not so easy to to achieve on a V flute profile.

David Ellsworth uses 60-65°. His wings sweep back more than other turners and his grind works better on parabolic flutes (eg Woodcut). For a time I used only that and his Ellsworth method of turning. It was a good discipline that I go back to at times and it is still how I do the final finishing shear cuts on the outside of bowls.

Each turner finds what works for them. The quality of the steel isn't so important when experimenting with different grinds. A cheaper gouge can be used for that as long as the flute profile is suited to the grind, or is that the other way around.

Appreciate the responses here fellas. Im in a similar boat i certainly dont earn a living from turning but i want it to cover itself eventually, at the moment the bowls i turn i take the opportunities to improve from the last and the people i give them to absolutely love them as gifts but i still have a desire for better quality cuts and finishes for next time. Im in the process of purchasing chisels over the coming months and am very intentional about it along with changes to my grinding setup so im heading in the right direction

Is there any chance that i could see some photos of a few of the gouges people reach for the most so i can see not just the angle but the kind of grind especially if its the same size chisel but different grind. If you have three bowl gouges all 3/4" or 1/2" with three grinds id be keen to see a pic and the usecases of where you use each one if possible?

I own a few woodcut gouges at the moment and am looking to buy more just not sure on sizing and kinds of grinds to settle on at the moment.

Cheers,
Nathan

I'm happy to take some photos in a day or so, Nathan.

I'm currently waiting to be discharged follow cataract surgery this morning, so will have to avoid my workshop for a few days.

I'll also try to include flute profiles as well as the bevel grinds. The interdependence of those two things is not always understood, even by some professional woodturners.

Thanks a lot Neil, Rest up though no rush on this im just curious to learn from what i have to improve my turning skills.

There was a name of an australian turner that wrote some decent books i thought id look at again, he has them hosted on his own website so ill try dig out his name to see if that can help in this area, somewhere in one of my bookmarks.

im keen to understand this more as its the first time im stepping outside of standard pre-cut bowl blanks as im sourcing material elsewhere now and the change in bevels and the grinds that different turners use is of interest to me. Im keen to explore what i find works for me better so will likely need some additional chisels to try this

Cheers,
Nathan

Probably thinking of Mike Darlow, or Richard Raffan.

Thanks the one Darlow.. I’ll see if his books cover off some of the instruction it seems I need.

Cheers for that

Agree with Jim. This is the simple fix to the problem. Drillit.