Ashley Cobb 8th March 2013, 04:43 PM Hello all,
I am young guy getting started in metalwork and I am chasing an anvil. I'm not able to spend several hundred $$ on a new one or so called "antique" ones that come up on ebay.
So I was wondering if anyone in brisbane or the surrounding suburbs would have a lead on a cheap anvil or a suitable length of railway track. I am prepared to pick up.
I am also good with Vector design and have done a lot of CNC wood routing and have recently converted a C3 Mini Lathe to CNC control.
Any leads would be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Ash
bob ward 8th March 2013, 11:51 PM I'm at Laidley and have old track, you are welcome if you want to pick up a piece. I'll have a look at it tomorrow and let you know lengths, from memory they are 6' to 10' long pieces, which can be cut if you don't need that much.
Re CNC wood routing, I need a casting pattern for 200mm dia wheels with curved spokes. I cooould do it on my manual mill but CNC would be so much easier. PM me or email r-j-wardATbigpond.com
Ben Dono 10th March 2013, 08:22 AM That sounds like a fair trade guys!
I made the mistake if spending far too long making a stand out of a log and green hardwood for my little railroad anvil. Cast one in concrete and reo. very large bucket as a base and 150mm PVC pipe as a riser. Cast the fixing bolts in the top to save you waiting 2 weeks for it to harden. Leave the PVC and bucket in place if you don't have a concrete vibrator.
Railroad tracks are soft anvils but second hand anvils are very expensive and are usually soft anyway. It's pot luck.
whitey56 10th March 2013, 08:33 AM Gday Ash
I have a short length of light gauge 110mm high it was buried so it's a bit rusty, you are welcome to 1/2 metre of it and i have a 9inch grinder if you want to bring your own cut-off discs.
Located at Deception Bay, mobile number 0439 734 067
Paul
nadroj 10th March 2013, 08:41 AM Can a used rail track be easily machined flat on top? I'm told they harden in use.
Jordan
Ben Dono 10th March 2013, 08:56 AM There are lots of people on the net using RR anvils. They say that it's the trains rolling over the track that work hardens them.
They are reasonably flat...well flatish.. You can mill them flat and true pretty easily according to the web. The guys that did that also heat treated it again. that looks dooable with a big oxy torch in a Simple blanket kiln. Actually... If you you knew somebody in a pottery shop very very well, they would have the ovens big enough to do that.
Used Forklift tines are a common DIY anvil. They have simpler solutions for the hardy and Pritchet holes as well.
One guy just cast some odd Tube, RHS and SHS in a plastic bin filled with concrete as Pritchet holes..
nearnexus 10th March 2013, 09:46 AM There are lots of people on the net using RR anvils. They say that it's the trains rolling over the track that work hardens them. .
Just slightly OT, the square steel plates the rails sit on and the pegs go though are made of really hard steel, and are seriously thick enough to be useful.
May need facing if rust pitted, but often laying around where old rail tracks have been.
Worth picking up if you see any.
The main downside with rail track is it "rings" a lot more than an anvil.
Does a concrete base reduce that?
Rob
Ashley Cobb 10th March 2013, 10:25 AM Thanks very much for the reply guys, I didn't seem to get any notification emails which is why I have been slow to respond.
I have a friend that has seen my post and is going to have a look for me next week.
I'm at Laidley and have old track, you are welcome if you want to pick up a piece. I'll have a look at it tomorrow and let you know lengths, from memory they are 6' to 10' long pieces, which can be cut if you don't need that much.
Re CNC wood routing, I need a casting pattern for 200mm dia wheels with curved spokes. I cooould do it on my manual mill but CNC would be so much easier. PM me or email r-j-wardATbigpond.com
Hi Bob,
Laidley may be a bit far for me to travel, I do appreciate the offer and will explore the local options first. I will also pass along your email to my friend with the large CNC router and I am sure that we can help with your casting pattern.
That sounds like a fair trade guys!
I made the mistake if spending far too long making a stand out of a log and green hardwood for my little railroad anvil. Cast one in concrete and reo. very large bucket as a base and 150mm PVC pipe as a riser. Cast the fixing bolts in the top to save you waiting 2 weeks for it to harden. Leave the PVC and bucket in place if you don't have a concrete vibrator.
Railroad tracks are soft anvils but second hand anvils are very expensive and are usually soft anyway. It's pot luck.
Hi Ben,
Thanks for the advice re- making a stand. I am not quite sure on that yet but I have some ideas. Most of which the landlord probably won't be happy about (oops!)
Gday Ash
I have a short length of light gauge 110mm high it was buried so it's a bit rusty, you are welcome to 1/2 metre of it and i have a 9inch grinder if you want to bring your own cut-off discs.
Located at Deception Bay, mobile number 0439 734 067
Paul
Hi Paul,
Thanks very much for the offer; I will take you up on your offer if the lead my friend has falls through. I will let you know either way. Thanks, I really appreciate it.
There are lots of people on the net using RR anvils. They say that it's the trains rolling over the track that work hardens them.
They are reasonably flat...well flatish.. You can mill them flat and true pretty easily according to the web. The guys that did that also heat treated it again. that looks dooable with a big oxy torch in a Simple blanket kiln. Actually... If you you knew somebody in a pottery shop very very well, they would have the ovens big enough to do that.
Used Forklift tines are a common DIY anvil. They have simpler solutions for the hardy and Pritchet holes as well.
One guy just cast some odd Tube, RHS and SHS in a plastic bin filled with concrete as Pritchet holes..
I had assumed that the trains rolling over the track would work harden them, which is why the RR track anvil was an attractive proposition. It's good to have someone with a lot more knowledge confirm that for me! I also have seen links on using forklift tines, although I think that may be a bit beyond me at the moment!
Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the offers and advice.
Cheers!
Ben Dono 10th March 2013, 10:28 AM Rob I don't know about reducing the 'ring' noise with a concrete base as I'm still using my timber stump as the base. The guys that have done it on the web say it improves the use of the RR anvil considerably due to the extra weight. The cast in anchors (deep/bent bolts) could help with the noise. Maybe bed the bottom of the anvil to the top of the concrete stump with something as well?
Research anvil heights. This has a huge impact on RSI and fatigue. Some like it high for light work, some like it low for heavy.
The 'ring' noise is very bad for your ears! Ear muffs are a must!
Ben Dono 10th March 2013, 10:33 AM Landlords can be a bit hard sometimes. I should have mentioned, you don't need to bolt the concrete base to the floor. It can sit there quite happily. My timber stand is probably 1/5th the weight and it moves a little but I'm fine with it.
Good luck mate!
Ashley Cobb 10th March 2013, 10:40 AM That's a good point re- bolting it to the floor. I thought it may be more stable that way but I guess the weight will take care of that.
Cheers
Ash
bob ward 10th March 2013, 02:10 PM I had assumed that the trains rolling over the track would work harden them, which is why the RR track anvil was an attractive proposition. It's good to have someone with a lot more knowledge confirm that for me! I also have seen links on using forklift tines, although I think that may be a bit beyond me at the moment!
Cheers!
The trains definitely cold work the track into a different shape over time. This is a cross section of a piece of late 1800's track, you can easily see the amount of wear and deformation it has suffered. If you look closely you can actually see a small tit forming on the RH side caused by the metal being shifted from L to R.
Track comes in different weights, generally the newer the track the heavier it will be.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff28/sirrobertthegood/Railheaddeformation.jpg
nearnexus 10th March 2013, 04:46 PM The trains definitely cold work the track into a different shape over time. This is a cross section of a piece of late 1800's track, you can easily see the amount of wear and deformation it has suffered. If you look closely you can actually see a small tit forming on the RH side caused by the metal being shifted from L to R.
There seems to be a horizontal compression band from the top of the rail down about 5 - 10 mm. ?
Can anyone else see that? Or is it something else.
Rob
AndrewOC 10th March 2013, 08:07 PM Also; http://www.woodworkforums.com/f266/anvils-166555/
may be helpful!
Andrew.
PS Since that thread I have been tempted by; All Steel Merchants and Brokers | Australia's premier Steel Merchants | Round & Square Bar Archives - All Steel Merchants and Brokers | Australia's premier Steel Merchants (http://www.allsteelbrokers.com.au/product-category/steel-round-steel-square-bar/)
My 'hammer height'- ~800mm = 2 cwt or 100kg, which is a fair sized anvil.
See if you can find such a second-hand steel company up your way.
Ueee 11th March 2013, 01:05 AM Geez i wish we had a company like that down here......
The rule of thumb with anvil height for general work is at knuckle height with your arms dangling by your sides. This also generally coincides with the height of another certain part of our anatomy....if you using that part just make sure you put it away before striking........:o
For light and very small work i often sit my little anvil (69lbs) on the side of the forge. It is a good height and being so close to the fire things don't have as long to cool down before getting to the anvil. The other trick with small stuff is to pre heat the anvil by heating up a large bar and sitting it on the anvil.
Good luck
desbromilow 13th March 2013, 01:43 PM Ash,
I made an anvil (with help) which then evolved see:
Des' projects or "Musings from the Shed": Homemade Anvil - RR Anvil - Part 1 (http://desbromilow.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/homemade-anvil-rr-anvil-part-1.html)
There is a part 2 in the website as well.
just 8 weeks ago I added a plate of bissloy over the top to thicken the top.
the ringing issue is real, so here are a few more suggestions:
Decide if you want an anvil, or an "ASO" (Anvil shaped object) - the first is a solid surface for shaping metal, the second "looks right" but is less than OK.
Anvils can be any heavy section metal (or granite for certain people) and I have anvils made from salvaged 8" diameter x 450mm L steel shafting, blocks of 2"x144"x14" plate, and a short (500mm) length of "crane rail" which came out from under a car positioner (135Kg pLm) - the crane rail is squat, and thick (4-5" across the top, and 5" deep with a 3.5" wide thin web in the middle
ASOs is what my RR anvil started out as, it's now useable, but it took a lot of rework, and I've still to make a base for it. I have (somewhere) my very first ASO - an aluminium model anvil i cast in high school - you can imagine how useful that is as a real anvil.
I've made some stake holders from 20L buckets filled with concrete, and pipe risers - they certainly are solid and have stood up to what I've trown at them (my stake tools are made from pipe risers and bits of steel welded to the risers (CV sockets, towballs, a tomahawk head, etc)
HTH,
Des
Big A 13th March 2013, 05:03 PM If you really want some anvil envy check out Anvilfire and Far West Forge sites in good old US of A. There is a couple of years of reading on Anvilfire alone.
You do not say just exactly what metal work you want do, but you will be very limited in what you can do on rail track. Anvils work best with the greatest part of the mass under the work. You simply can't get this if you use the running part of the rail. If you bury a good length of rail in the ground and use the end, you will have some mass, but a relatively small working area. (All you need is good hammer control!)
There is a good ratio of anvil weight to hammer weight, but I can't call it to mind. I have a 112 pound anvil and it is a light one - I wouldn't do much on it with a ten pound sledge. You probably know the feeling of trying to put a 2 inch nail into a loose piece of 3x2, as opposed to a securely held one.
It doesn't matter how long a piece of rail you have, you mostly only have the benefit of the mass under the hammer. The web of the rail will be relatively springy and the base will only stop it from going into the ground and there is the chance of going deaf.
You could be better off with a sixteen pound sledge set into a good solid log, or any heavy piece of steel with a flat face.
As one bloke once said, poor people have poor ways. Meaning that if you do not have much money, you make do with what you can get. (When you have a four pound hammer and hot iron, any flat surface looks like an anvil!)
Cheers,
"A".
desbromilow 13th March 2013, 07:11 PM If you really want some anvil envy check out Anvilfire and Far West Forge sites in good old US of A. There is a couple of years of reading on Anvilfire alone.
Snip
There is a good ratio of anvil weight to hammer weight, but I can't call it to mind. I have a 112 pound anvil and it is a light one - I wouldn't do much on it with a ten pound sledge. You probably know the feeling of trying to put a 2 inch nail into a loose piece of 3x2, as opposed to a securely held one.
Snip
You could be better off with a sixteen pound sledge set into a good solid log, or any heavy piece of steel with a flat face.
As one bloke once said, poor people have poor ways. Meaning that if you do not have much money, you make do with what you can get. (When you have a four pound hammer and hot iron, any flat surface looks like an anvil!)
Cheers,
"A".
All very good advice!!!!!!
From memory the minimum ratio of hammer to weight on anvilfire (and ABANA) is 1:10 - but the bigger the better as demonstrated in the example mentioned above. it was sites like ABANA where I got the tips for making a RR anvil - including the sage advice of "don't bother" and the discussion about "ASO's" - well worth the time to read, and gave me confidence in stating without a "real anvil", and building my own tools from available scrap steel
Don't discount the sledge in a log concept - there is a website selling kukris from india/pakistan area where they have photos of the kukris being made - all hand blown forges, and bladesmiths using 16lb (or thereabouts) sledge hammer heads as anvils, and 1lb (at most) peen hammers as hammers. Those craftsmen hold the sledge head between their feet, and pound on the metal with the smaller hammer - I'm sure you could do better than that with a little bit of thought.
far from an expert, but eager to have a go,
Des
| |